CHAPTER 3
Bill Hicks had a bit in his
stand up routine where he would describe how people would try and encourage
him to give up smoking. One of the reasons suggested for doing this
was that he would get his sense of smell back. Hick’s reply was
the following: ‘I’ve got news for you. I live in New York…I
don’t want my sense of smell back.’ Yes indeed, the sights
and sounds of this great city are taking on a diminished significance
relative to the sweet (but mostly sour) odours of Chinatown. Paradoxically,
this was the first day there was actually some movement of the air,
but of course the cooling breeze could only mitigate so much due to
its less than neutral fragrance. However, part of the experience of
being here is about being out on the streets, and despite my fascination
with subways and underground train networks, I’m happy to be above
ground. The set up for filming is a very simple two camera and tripod
affair, so generally its easy to get to most of our appointments on
foot. This time, we were meeting Richard Foreman at his loft on Wooster
Street, about ten minutes walk from the hotel. When we arrive, we have
the same discussion that has recurred over the last few days…should
we be filming our entrances to the buildings we’re interviewing
in? Those long rides up in the wood panelled lifts (with me looking
pensive) could potentially set the scenes fantastically. But then again,
I’m determined to stay as far behind the camera as I can, at least
in this leg of the filming. I know how annoyed I get when bloody Michael
Moore lumbers into view in his documentaries.
Richard Foreman is viewed
as a (if not, THE) key figure in experimental American theatre practice
from the 60’s onwards, so in many respects, it was quite a coup
getting him to talk to us. He had been at the ICA in London a few weeks
previously, and it had actually crossed my mind to try and catch him
there, but I’ve a feeling that familiar territory for the interviewee
really does help…a home advantage if you like. I guess I was conscious
of the fact that the email correspondence running up to the interview
was characterised by a sort of brevity and minimal directness (replies
of singular words in some cases!) that made me think that he is asked
to do these sort of things rather a lot. I wondered if this was going
to be a sign of things to come.
I’m always fascinated
by peoples collections, be they books, music (or even stamps), but in
this case, entering Foreman’s loft was a potentially intimidating
experience in terms of gauging before the interview how level the intellectual
playing field was going to be. It was almost as though the building
itself was constructed from ceiling to floor with seemingly endless
stacks of literary and philosophical tracts. I need to be on my toes
here, I thought.
We started out by discussing
the fact that essentially, Stuart Sherman only started his solo performances
after working with Foreman in the late 60‘s and early 70‘s.
However, he went to great pains to explain that he didn’t feel
himself to be ‘responsible’ or ‘influential’
in terms of what Stuart went on to do. Part of me still wanted to push
this issue though, particularly as my knowledge of the specifics of
Foreman’s work was quite limited, whilst acknowledging that in
terms of exploring the origins of the stylistic aspects of Stuarts work
this period was key. Richard spoke about his use of ‘non-performers’
in his work as a possible angle of entry, but rightly or wrongly, I
wanted to expand on the notion of influence and methodologies being
carried forward….the notion of the protégé. I had
found this quote on his website:
"Foreman engages
in what the poet John Keats famously described as “negative capability”
- i.e. 'when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries,
doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason.' He seeks
to make work that unsettles and disorients received ideas and opens
the doors for alternative models of perception, organization, and understanding."
I told Richard that this
quotation resonated with my memories of watching Stuart perform - the
idea that meaning would appear and then disappear like the swash and
backwash of waves on a beach. For me, it didn’t matter that I
didn’t always ‘get’ what it was I was seeing. There
just seemed to be an inherent pleasure in watching, and besides, in
a few moments time, you knew that something would happen that one could
latch onto, albeit momentarily. Richard admitted he wasn’t really
that familiar with much of the material on his website, and although
he understood what I was saying, he couldn’t really expand upon
it. Many of the descriptions of Stuart in previous interviews have been
somewhat gushing, but Richard was certainly more measured in his approach….certainly
less anecdotal anyway. Bearing this in mind (and wanting to try and
develop a dialogue between interviewees based on similar stories) I
told Richard that in email correspondence, George Gajek (a good friend
of Stuart’s) had mentioned to me the following incident:
“Later, some time
in the 90s, Foreman invited Stuart to create a performance to follow
directly one of his own plays at the Saint Mark's Church, using the
same stage setting, props, and recorded dialogue. It turned out to be
one of the best (and funniest) Stuart shows, so I think, with some elements
never seen otherwise in his work, such as taped quotes from Foreman's
piece. It appeared to be a scathing parodistic variation on the host
play, its concerns, aesthetics, philosophy, or expressive means. Stuart
has never repeated this production... Seemingly, no written or photographic
material has been left. Yet the house was full to witness the event...
Richard, though ashen-faced at the conclusion, later wrote a warm obituary…”
Richard seemed somewhat nonplussed.
He did remember the performance (vaguely), but questioned the recollection
of him being ‘ashen faced’ at the end of it…
‘Why would I be?’
was his response.
Overall, I don’t feel
that Richard was any less forthcoming, but many of my queries were met
with a ‘I really couldn’t say’ or ‘it was such
a long time ago, I can’t really remember’. Although these
responses were qualified, this certainly translated into a lack of momentum
in the conversation. However, perhaps this says more about my questioning
style than it does about his willingness to talk. Looking back through
my notes, I’ve a feeling that maybe I was asking him to overly
speculate on what he thought Stuart‘s motivations were, and it
seemed the tone of his answers implied (quite rightly) that he wasn’t
really the one to know. Once again, here was somebody else who pointed
out that Stefan Brecht would have been a key character to have spoken
to in terms of establishing a more intimate portrait. Perhaps this was
one of the reasons that this interview lasted thirty minutes rather
than the usual hour or so, but, there was still some very useful and
usable material here. I’m finding that in all the interviews,
I have developed a form of ‘double consciousness’ whereby
on the one hand, you are attentively listening to the speaker whilst
at the same time making mental calculations as to the possibility of
using a specific anecdote relative to other sections already recorded.
In this sense, the editing process has already started happening.
I say that Richard was a
little more reticent, but that said, he was one of the only interviewees
to flesh out his thoughts about Stuarts relationship with some of his
family members, which I understand was strained at times. A wry sense
of humour also bubbled to the surface when Richard mentioned with a
chuckle that he had recently noticed a physical resemblance between
Stuart and the current Republican presidential candidate John McCain.
I think he was referring to the strange hunch that McCain has in his
shoulders, apparently something to do with the torture he experienced
as a prisoner of war in Vietnam. As you see him now, his posture suggests
that he has left the coat hanger in his jacket…something I could
imagine Stuart Sherman doing as an action in one of his spectacles.
As we were packing up, he
asked what our plans were for the documentary. I said I wasn’t
really that sure, as any further developments were dependent on funding,
which is in quite short supply. Richard then started talking about a
documentary film that had been made about the US underground filmmaker
Jack Smith (described by Laurie Anderson as ‘the godfather of
performance art’), another key figure in the New York experimental
arts scene. What he said made me stop in my tracks and listen…apparently,
there was a feeling that this film had comprehensively misrepresented
Jack Smith, with slick editing, mood music and sound-bite after sound-bite
that was so far removed from Smiths aesthetic and methodology as to
give a way a complete misunderstanding of the nature of the man and
his work on the part of the filmmaker. Richard seemed to be very angry
about this, and although I didn’t take this as a veiled warning
to take care with how I use the material regarding Stuart, it certainly
brought back into focus an issue at that has concerned me since the
inception of the project. Not only the question of reverence, but also
the degree to which I am ‘the right person’ to be doing
this at all.
Next Instalment:
Filming street scenes in Downtown New York.